Ostracizing the Holy Spirit from the Godhead
We had the most incredible gospel meeting. Our speaker was wonderful! I know I am not the only one still chewing on and mulling over the things that he said. He spoke one evening about the Holy Spirit and the way we relate to Him. He said that for years we have been so afraid we might seem charismatic or pentecostal that we have ostracized the Holy Spirit from the Godhead and have replaced Him with the Bible. Wow! I am thinking about this and wanted to know what you, my few faithful readers, think of this?
Comments?
Blessings
Neva
Comments?
Blessings
Neva
posted by Neva | 2:04 AM
61 Comments:
Neva, I have heard this before. because of my upbringing, it is hard to identify with. An elderly man in our congregation (a smart and studied man) once explained that the Church used to be more demonstrative (for lack of a better word); but when Billy Sunday came on the scene with his preaching and extremely demonstrative revivals, the Church became what we see today in order not to be identified with him. I am not sure I am explaining this in a coherent way, but if you would like to talk more, just let me know. Pat
I have been in the church of Christ my entire life. I haven't heard this, but like you, I am thinking about it. I like what Pat said except that it doesn't seem like the church should change their practices or behaviors in order to not be identified with someone else. What if some religious way out there freak decided they would be known for taking communion every Sunday? It just seems like if it is right, it is right, no matter who does it! but like I said, I am still thinking.
Carol
I have heard biblioaltry described as elevating the bible to the fourth person of the trinity. Sad because the scriptures were never meant to replace the Holy Spirit. Also sad that some who worship the bible (instead of God) evidence very little of the Spirit's influence (i.e. fruit) in their lives.
I am thinking he is right! But, I am not sure I agree that fear of being identified as charismatic is the whole reason. I think we are afraid of what we don't know and most of us don't know enough about the Holy Spirit. Just a thought!
Dan
That's an interesting thought. I think a lot of times, b/c we may not have a real understanding of the holy spirit, we discount it...it's very abstract and that's hard for our human minds who often like to work with concrete ideas don't get.
Balance.
The Bible isn't God but it is the only revelation we have from God. It is inspired by God the Spirit, as given to us by God the Son, Who only says those things God the Father told Him to say.
There are three in the "godhead" not one or two; or, one large - one medium - one small.
In my experience, Hello my name is Don and I grew up in the Lord's church, we shy from God the Spirit because of fear of Pentecostalism or Charismatic influences.
"Bibliolatry" in my opinion is one of two things:
[1] spiritual immaturity
[2] a neat word some folks learned in college
I don't worry too much about "bibliolatry" today... most of my brethren are too "biblignorant" for me to worry about them elevating the Word of God to God. I personally have never met anyone who worshiped their Bibles. I know quite a few who leave them in the "house of the Lord" during the week but I just assumed "biblignorance" on their part.
________
BUT, I agree that we shy from God the Spirit. He is after all our guarrantee from God of redemption on the last Day. Yes, I am one of those indwelling of God the Spirit dudes. :)
PSS: Please try to not refer to God the Spirit as an "it". He is always a He in the Bible.
When we finish this let's move on to "Jesus is God". Boy, that's also a tough one for the brethren.
Maybe it is spiritual immaturity Don.
When I think about bibliolatry I often think about people who read the bible to merely know what it says (like reading a text book) instead of reading it to know God.
I think that many, like the Pharisees, know the letter of the scripture but not the heart of it.. can give you a Greek definition of compassion but haven't a clue of what it looks like.. know what the book says but really don't know God - and that is where the Holy Spirit comes in :)
Neva, I haven’t commented on your blog for quite some time, why because I got the hint I was unwelcome. But this is a very important subject you have brought up. I see no other thing that can be as harmful to Christ’s Church than one who sees their self as indwelled by God. Right or wrong there is no room for change, God does not change.
Now, that said I do believe God has a great influence on all his people, why do I believe such a thing, It is written in the bible the only thing we have left to us to let us know God as well as we can.
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Act 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and [toward] men.
Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
John 8:9 And they which heard [it], being convicted by [their own] conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, [even] unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
What did John say? No he didn’t say they were convicted by the indwelling spirit, he said their own conscience.
Wow! I am enjoying this discussion. I too, am one who is indwelled by God the Spirit. I believe the bible teaches that God's elect are. I do realize that our history with the Holy Spirit isn't what it should be. Any ideas out there, Kansas Bob or Don, or any other commenters on how we the church can change that?
Dean
Small groups are usually a great place to learn about the Holy Spirit Dean.
Neva,
I've heard such things. An outsider once said, "Oh, you guys are the ones that believe in the God that created the world, then left, his Son that came, died and left, and the Spirit, that wrote a book based on which we'll all be judged, then left."
I very much believe that the Spirit of God lives in us. Romans 8 is a very strong passage on that point.
Grace and peace,
Tim
It might be easier to convince people if we did not fight so hard for the carnal things of life (money)
We put on Christ, but don't allow the Spirit of God to indwell in us? Hmmmm?
Christ lives in me, but I'm to accept that the Holy Spirit of God doesn't? Hmmmm?
His [God's] Spirit speaks to my spirit, but He must be out-dwelling - there's no way He can be indwelling?? Hmmmmm?
I truly believe the CofCs have been terrified of even mentioning the Holy Spirit out of fear that we'd commit that one unforgiveable sin. Hmmmmm?
We bound/sealed by the Holy Spirit and we can also grieve Him. But He's not indwelling? Hmmmmm?
He is our translator before God's Throne of Mercy - He is our Comforter and Teacher - He opens our hearts and minds to God's truthes as written in what we call The Bible,and yet we negate His very presence in our hearts? I don't think so. :)
I too am an "indwelling of the Holy Spirit" gal and am so thankful for the teachers that helped me realize that enormous gift from God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
btw- being faithful cofCers I'm sure y'all know the scriptures referred to above. ;) Yep! I'm sure of it. :)
again, btw - being filled with the Spirit does not always equate with demonstrative worship time. At least, I don't believe so. However, being aware of His presence in us opens our hearts to the point we simply MUST let all that joy out somehow and somewhere. PTL!! \o/
Kansas-
Don't have an answer (you weren't looking for one :)) for that.
What makes a person religious but not spiritual?????
IMO They haven't been moved to be that way.
Then again there are those who are spiritual but not religious.... they are just as wrong.
All touchie-feelie and no thinkie-thinkie. ;)
You may all use that last one... I give it to you.
Kathy-
I agree with you I just can't say so now because with all that Hmmmmmmm
my lips are too numb. ;)
Does it only seem strange to me that one can argue two seemingly opposing sides of the same argument and think they have made both sides beliveable.
"He is our translator before God's Throne of Mercy"
And yet they will say the Godhead is made up of three equal beings, one of which is this translator.
Am I the only one who sees this argument as saying the counselor, and the judge are the same.
Dean-
I'll give you the only answer that I've ever got that time and experience has proved correct.
We change things one person at a time through study and application.
Don, please explain to us why your indwelling spirit tells you IM is wrong, and most of the rest of the indwellers say there is nothing wrong with IM in worship.
laymond-
God the Spirit "dwelling" with my spirit doesn't speak to me.
The indwelling is a guarantee as a born again child of God that we will be safe in the hands of God. The indwelling of God the Spirit is a spiritual reality of my salvation in Christ.
IM is not the topic of this post and I won't hi-jack Neva's post.
But you could have picked any doctrinal topic. The fact is that Paul is speaking to brethren in Romans 12.1-2 and not to, as he would say, pagans. A non Christian can read the Holy Spirit inspired word of God all day, every day and never "get it"; but, an indwelled child of God can have his/her mind transformed to know the will of God. The difference is one is an unregenerate non-indwelled being and the latter is a born again spirit indwelled child of God.
As for those who are in Christ and have the IM issue wrong, all I can say is- every book of the New Testament past the book of Acts is written to brethren and at some point each letter has a doctrinal issue that one or all of the addressees "got wrong". One in Christ can quench, grieve and reject the Spirit.
Just one more point favoring a better understanding of God the Spirit in our lives.
It isn't about how we use the Holy Spirit to beat each other up or to make our point. It is about whether or not we believe He lives in us and is a part of the Trinity as God in His word says.
Carlos
Pat,
I would like to talk more. Like I said, I am thinking about this. I was pretty sure at the beginning, that I agreed with what he said but I usually have to mull something over before I jump on the bandwagon.
Blessings
Neva
Carol,
I agree 100% and I think that was really the point the speaker was making is that we are often so afraid to be identified with some denomination, that we, the church, stop doing or refuse to start doing or practicing what we have spiritual commands or permission to do.
Blessings
neva
Kansas Bob,
I hadn't heard that before either but am now "mulling" over it, too.
Blessings
Neva
Dean and Larissa,
I agree--I think our ignorance plays a huge role in the way we relate or don't relate to the Holy Spirit.
Blessings
neva
Don,
Amen! It is difficult to separate God and pleasing Him from His divine revelation telling us His wishes, desires and plans. The bible is important and I don't think we can know God without it.
Blessings
neva
Laymond,
I am sorry you felt unwelcome here. Comments are always welcome. I reserve the right to disagree with any and as the owner of the blog to remind all commenters to behave like Christians, but everyone is welcome here.
Blessings
Neva
Tim,
that is a sad commentary about how others perceive us, isn't it? I pray that we work hard to change that perception.
Glad to see you here, brother. I am still unable to comment on your blog but I do read.
Blessings
Neva
Kathy my sister,
how I love your visits! I am with you! I can't imagine it any other way!
Blessings
neva
Carlos,
Yes, sometimes we lose the gist of the post. Thank you for reminding us.
Blessings
neva
All,
I am really thinking and praying alot about this discussion. I am wondering . . .do you remember when we are told that Jesus didn't do very many miracles in a certain place because of their lack of faith? Maybe we don't know enough about the Holy Spirit and His work in our lives because we relegate Him to the far far attic of our minds? Just wondering . . .
What do you think?
Blessings
neva
PS thanks for the discussion--yall always help me learn.
Don said "God the Spirit "dwelling" with my spirit doesn't speak to me.
The indwelling is a guarantee as a born again child of God that we will be safe in the hands of God. The indwelling of God the Spirit is a spiritual reality of my salvation in Christ."
Don, if I could understand just what people are saying when they claim to be indwelled by "The Spirit" maybe I could agree, but you seem to see it differently than most who claim that do. I sorta agree with what you said, but others claim they are guided through life by this spirit, and when they mess up he is their intermediary before God (obtw who he is)I didn't mean to change the subject, I only mentioned IM because most Christians if not all have an opinion on the subject, and I was looking for an explanation why? some are led in one direction and others in another.? if they are indwelled by this same spirit. I understand the spirit does not speak to you (me neither) but some say he does speak to and for them. I admit I have been influenced by what we called the "Holiness Church" when I was a kid, I went there more than once and they seemed to "GET" the holy ghost only during worship (scared the heck out of a kid) I thought they were dying.
Neva,
Very Merry Christmas to you!
Hey guys,
A favor. I'm still catching up on some of the insiders' speak, having been out of the country for about 30 years. One of the holes in my vocabulary is the key to some acronyms - ergo - what is IM?????
Thanks so much, and Merry Christmas all!
K
in this discussion--instrumental music
Oh dear! I truly wish it WERE Instant Messaging - which really is closer to this discussion, don't ya' think? ;)And that's as far as I'm going to step into this side issue. Thanks, Neva! :)
This topic needs to be discussed more, when I read what Peter said in Acts 2:38 that we would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit in baptism and then how He advocates for me I am so grateful I no longer have to fear anything. The Holy Spirit dwells in me, understands my failures and pleads for me, teaches, me lets me understand what I am capable of at a given time. Christ told us in His words that this is so, from the beginning. Do I find the Holy Spirit mysterious, yes I do but not a mystery of fear but a wonder of the magnitude of how much He does for me and I am not always grateful in my ignorance nor even aware. In my thoughts of the Holy Spirit I realize how small I really am at times so once again He stirs my awareness to my slights and being aware pushes me to correct that human flaw in myself. I sometimes get just a sense of Him always close and that is comfort.
There are just not enough words to even begin to convey all that I feel when I think of the Trinity, God the father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit.
madalyn
Madalyn. I think you are right when you said" This topic needs to be discussed more" I have never heard a CoC preacher give a sermon on either, the indwelling or the trinity.
You said "There are just not enough words to even begin to convey all that I feel when I think of the Trinity, God the father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit."
Do you think this is three individual beings, or one being called by three different names?
Lamond - obviously I'm not Madelyn, but may I give you my answer to your excellent question?
The way I have been able to begin to understand the mystery of the Trinity is:
Father, Son, Holy Spirit; God.
In regards to our conversation, a snippet from Oswald Chambers' My Utmost For His Highest for today struck me rather forcefully.
No matter what our situation is, the Spirit of God remains unchanged and His salvation unaltered.
My your day be blessed to overflowing as you Worship the King in company of your church families. \o/
Carlos said...
"It isn't about how we use the Holy Spirit to beat each other up or to make our point. It is about whether or not we believe He lives in us and is a part of the Trinity as God in His word says."
Carlos, can you please point to the passage to which you refer. I have searcher and searched and for some reason I cannot find it, I am sure I have over looked something, please help here.
Hi Laymond,
Here is one passage that points out the uniqueness of each member of the Trinity..
When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:16-17)
In these two verses we see the Son in the water, the Spirit descending in the air and the Father speaking from heaven. I think that this speaks to the uniqueness of each member of the Trinity.. unless we are to read it as God descending on Himself and speaking to Himself.
Not sure if that makes sense to you? I would be interested in your take on these verses in specific.
Shalom, Bob
KB said "In these two verses we see the Son in the water, the Spirit descending in the air and the Father speaking from heaven. I think that this speaks to the uniqueness of each-----. (KB I totally agree with what you said up to here.But you went on to say)--member of the Trinity..
Carlos said "and is a part of the Trinity as God in His word says."
What I was asking Carlos was, where is it that, the word of God speaks of "the trinity"? or you may feel free to answer that question, if you wish.
Hi Laymond,
Are you saying that your issue is with the word "trinity"? Do you also have issues with other words that are not directly mentioned in scripture to describe God.. words like omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience?
Shalom, Bob
Laymond is correct--the word "trinity" itself is not in the Holy Bible. However one can scarcely read the text without finding the concept--even from the very beginning--"let us make man in our image" unless of course that it limited to God the Father and God the Son?
Carlos
KB, I do take issue with the word trinity, when it refers to God.
Carlos, I don't know how many were present when man was created, but I want to point out a very interesting scripture from the Book of Proverbs.
8:22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,
So from this scripture we can see the following points.
This person was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
This person was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
This person was given birth before creation.
This person was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Who do you conclude this person to be?
From your response Laymond it appears that your objection is not that the word "trinity" us not in scripture but that you do not believe that Jesus is God the Son. I doubt that I can persuade you otherwise and really do not wish to enter into a debate about it at this time.. but if you care to debate someone about it you can check out Matt Slick's page titled Bible verses that show Jesus is God.
Shalom, Bob
KB, thanks for the link, but I do believe over the years I have heard every argument that the trinity folks have. I would have given up trying to convince folks a long time ago, if it were not so important to one's salvation, I do believe Jesus said "if you deny me --- or maybe it is best understood as, If you don't recognize me (who I am) before men, I won't recognize you when you come before God"
What was Peter's answer when Jesus asked "who do you say I am"? and how did Jesus respond.
This is not an issue like IM,one cup, or what day we worship. This is a question we must come to gripes with, Who is God, is he a supreme almighty, as the bible says? or is he a Trinity as man says? Is Jesus the son of God as he says, or is he really God as man says.? As you said I will not change my mind, why because I agree with Jesus and the bible.
God bless you Bob.
Fair enough Laymond.. for me I'll go with what CS Lewis said about Jesus in Mere Christianity (have you read it?)..
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said [about Himself] would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic -- on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg -- or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon, or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come away with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
Well KB, I have read some CSL, but I don't base my religion on it.
might as well make it fifty comments, Happy New Year Neva.
May your life be filled with happiness as you daily experience the blessings of God in the New Year!
bill @ a spiritual oasis
Happy New Year Neva!
Happy New Year Neva
hugs
donna
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